Talk:Ghetsis
OK, TV Tropes can say otherwise all they like, but on this wiki, I think Ghetsis should be acknowledged as a Complete Monster. He's been THE Complete Monster of "Pokemon" for at least two years now. Why stop now? The reasoning for deleting it here was "Sorry, Ghetsis fails the criteria since most of his actions are offscreen, and calling his son insulting names isn't crossing the moral event horizon." I'm against the notion that a Complete Monster absolutely HAS to commit attrocities ON-SCREEN to qualify. The trope ought to be about who and what the villain IS, not just what they do. Villains who are 100% pure evil and inhumane enough to do heinous things. Ghetsis fits that bill. And I actually agree that calling his son insulting names was not crossing the Moral Event Horizon: it was just Kicking The Dog. The backstory shows us that Ghetsis was already on the Moral Event Horizon from the start of the game: he just keeps on going with all of the actions we see him take. To prove my point further, let's really look at the criteria and see how Ghetsis stacks up: ''- The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way. The character's terribleness is played seriously, even if the work is light and/or comedic. Other characters in-story must fear or hate this character.'' If TV Tropes big reason for excluding Ghetsis was because he failed the heinous standard compared to Cyrus, then they shot themselves in the foot by saying "by the standards of THE STORY" rather than "by the standards of the franchise". The "Pokemon Black and White" games are a completely different story from the "Pokemon Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum" games, and Cyrus' actions have absolutely no bearing on them. By the standards of the story that features Ghetsis, Ghetsis is the most heinous villain. (I'd argue that even considering Cyrus, Ghetsis is still a darker villain by the franchise standards judging by who he is, not what he does or attempts to do.) Ghetsis is never ever presented in a positive way in either games: by the end of the sequel, even the Shadow Triad seem willing to give up on him. His terribleness is played dead seriously every time he's involved in something. Other characters like Alder, Cheren, Bianca, Hugh, and Colress hate him, the rest of Team Plasma fears him (as evidenced at the Dream Yard), and even N and Zinzolin,turn against him in the end because he cares nothing for anyone other than himself. ''- The character has either no Freudian Excuse to validate their crimes, or their Freudian Excuse is presented in-story as inadequete. Any sympathy evoked in their backstories is long gone in the present time.'' There is no Freudian Excuse presented for Ghetsis. None. At all. His motives all come from power lust, arrogance, and a sense of entitlement. His descent from some royal bloodline has led him to believe he's "perfect" and that only he must have Pokemon and use their power to rule over the world. That's all it ever amounts to. ''- They are completely devoid of alturistic qualities, show no regret for their crimes, are never redeemed or have any possibility of redemption.'' Ghetsis shows zero positive traits or redeeming qualities, and has no alturistic qualities. Everything he does, every word and action he takes towards everyone, is for his own purposes and he'd use anyone he could in order to fulfill his desires, then throw them away when they were of no use to him. He is completely, shamelessly selfish. He shows no regrets for his crimes: in fact, he justifies them every step of the way because he is "perfect." He's never redeemed. Not all "Pokemon" villains are, but Ghetsis is one of few who was offered redemption by someone he had personally hurt all his life, and yet he still refuses to accept it. With Cyrus, there was at least the possibility of redemption because he only drowned out attempts to help him due to his mental issues. Ghetsis just cannot accept or embrace forgiveness, goodness, and redemption because he's just plain evil. There's not a shred of decency in this guy. What tops this all off is just how much Ghetsis gets off on hurting others and elevating himself to greater glory. He goes on about how he cares for no other human being or Pokemon: only himself, and how much he loves seeing someone break in despair when all their hopes and dreams are taken from them. He's cruel to everyone, takes sadistic pleasure in being so, every deplorable action Team Plasma takes and thus everything that goes wrong in the story is because of his scheming, he'd be ready and willing to dispose of even his adopted child, whom he never loved, he is verbally and possibly physcially abusive to people and Pokemon, cares for nothing but himself, wants to enslave everyone, his actions in the sequel endanger many lives, he tortures Kyurem in order to have it comply with said destructive actions, and he also tries to have the player character killed. He's one of the few villains who's willing to have a Pokemon flat-out attack a human child directly rather than challenge them to a battle first. And the death would not be by icicle impalement: it would be a slow, painful death by freezing, which would be even worse and is the kind of death Ghetsis would enjoy more because the person will suffer and break in despair. Add all this together, and Ghetsis is pretty much the Devil of this series, like his name and appearance would suggest. That's why he's a valid example of a Complete Monster. Edit: Sorry, I was using All The Tropes' (much better) definition of Complete Monster to prove my point. The TV Tropes one is: *- The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way. *- The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story. *- They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes. Yes, Ghetsis hits all three of those. The one thing TV Tropes claims he fails is the "heinous standard", and I already covered why the Cyrus comparission doesn't fly because Cyrus was from a different installment: not part of the same story. So Ghetsis is indeed a Complete Monster, thus the category should stay. DocColress (talk) 20:04, April 9, 2013 (UTC)DocColress Role in the Sequel If anything, I think Ghetsis could probably qualify as a CM in the sequel games, because his plan this time around was to freeze the entire Unova region, and it most likely would've lead to hundreds, if not millions of deaths. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 02:30, August 16, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky True, but that alone wouldn't be enough to qualify him since one region is small time compared to Cyrus and Lysandre's intended body counts (Worse in the latter's case since he wasn't even planning on re-creating them - just flat-out mass murdering everyone.) What qualifies Ghetsis is that he causes as much damage as he's capable of with the scale and resources at his disposal, AND he has zero redeeming features on to op that. Also the fact that he's a specialist in physical, mental, and emotional torture, which is arguably even worse than murder. DocColress (talk) 21:46, September 4, 2014 (UTC) DocColress I know that, I just think that given what he could do with freezing the Unova region over, he could at least be as heinous as he could've possibly been. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 04:29, September 7, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky That's what I mean. The way Ghetsis is characterized (and remember, characterization is as important as actions when it comes to this trope) gives us the idea that if there was a means to the end of gaining power that he felt was most suitable, he'd use it to the best of his abilities. If he had Cipher's resources at his disposal to create Shadow Pokemon with, he would. If he had the Golden Armor than Purple-Eyes hijacked, he'd use it. If he had the powers of Mystery Dungeon Darkrai or even Arceus itself, he'd use it. It just so happens that he had only Kyurem to work with after the failure of his initial plan, so he used it's powers to fire through his canon (by torturing it, no less) in order to do the most damage to Unova that he was capable of dealing out. He states flat-out that the end result of his freeze attacks will be "the terrified masses" relinquishing power to him. They'd be terrified, of course, for their lives. So yes, he was intending to cause a large amount of death and destruction just to extort power. And that's not getting into what he attempts to do to the Player Character at the chasm - a Glaciate attack, if used on a human, would be fatal. DocColress (talk) 00:10, September 8, 2014 (UTC)DocColress Yes, I am aware that characterization is important in order for a villain to be a CM, all I'm saying is that he could count by his resources. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 01:09, September 8, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky In terms of his character, I'm not going to go against this guy is nothing less than a colossal dick. And I believe that offscreen villainy still counts if the results are still shown. I can see where you're coming from. However, ''with that being said, I'm still going to talk about the heinous standard. N's abuse is primarily limited to, again, name-calling and rather mild psychological abuse given the E rating, with any implications of murder, freezing Unova over or not, are implications at worst. Even when cornering the player character, it's more strongly implied he's aiming to incapacitate the player rather than downright murder them. This is a series where a common goal of the villains is billion-death genocide, and they actually did point out people were going to die. Even taking that out, there are still the other people who count as Monsters, like Purple Eyes, who Ghetsis still falls flat compared to, what with the whole "attempting to drop a floating island on Oblivia" deal. Even if he had the opportunity to do all that stuff that Purple Eyes did, he didn't actually do it, so we can't measure him by that. Overall, yes, Ghetsis is characterized as a Complete Monster: his personality and character fits that perfectly. However, comparing to what he actually did in the games, his actions don't qualify him. He's simply the most straightforwardly evil Pokèmon villain: not at the level of a Complete Monster in my opinion. As for resources, his level of resources don't really differ that much from others: first game, he's got all of Team Plasma and their false leader under his hands, and in the second, he still has access to a Legendary Pokèmon and the potential to decimate an entire region. If anything, he only has slightly less potential than every other villain, and that's really not saying much anymore. You can't really call him a CM if he only acts like one. Again, he's the most straightforwardly evil Pokèmon villain, but he's still under the level of a CM. My opinion. Feel free to counter-argue it. [[User:LostGod2000|'THE DREADED']][[User talk:LostGod2000|' ONE AWAKENS ]] 03:20, September 8, 2014 (UTC) With that said, I'm starting to ultimately reconsider my judgment on Eddy's Brother. A colossal dick, but his actions still are a little too mild to qualify as a CM, even given the character's lack of resources. [[User:LostGod2000|'''THE DREADED]][[User talk:LostGod2000|''' ONE AWAKENS ]] 03:22, September 8, 2014 (UTC) Please don't make this any harder, LostGod. I'm trying to be reasonable here. While I respect your opinions, I'm trying to listen to both sides here. However, I will have to agree on you with Eddy's Brother here. What of characters like Tomoo or the Bullies from Elfen Lied. I essentially told Pigletisbacon to not delete the CM category again, because I didn't want an edit war to start up again. After all, he was the reason as to why the page for the Bullies was locked anyway. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 03:32, September 8, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky N's psychological abuse was anything but mild. He wasn't just being manipulated and used as a pawn - he was flat out brainwashed for most of his life and his emotional growth was deliberately stunted so that he could keep a child-like innocence needed to be the hero. And not only was Ghetsis "name-calling", he was'' victim blaming'': making it seem like N being a "warped, defective boy" and a "freak without a human heart who can only understand Pokemon" was entirely N's fault, even though Ghetsis raised him and exploited this very nature for his plans to work, so he's insulting him for being exactly what he had needed him to be. That is a disgusting thing for any human being to do, especially to their own kid. With his implications, they were very heavy implications, not at all mild. The people of Unova wouldn't relinquish power because they were scared of big scary dragons or cold weather - both games, Ghetsis was planning to use the threat of force. If people didn't release their Pokemon in the first game, N could have his dragon destroy the region just like it was destroyed in the legend. If people didn't relinquish power to Ghetsis in the second game, the chill caused by Kyurem's freezing would get more and more fatal until everyone was dead. It's an extortion scheme similar to what Charon was planning on doing in "Platinum" but unlike Charon, Ghetsis actually has the capacity to pull it off. And also, no - Cyrus from a generation back was the one who always implied he'd aim to incapacitate the player. Ghetsis, both times, suggested murder. In the first game he said that in order for no one to know about what transpired in the battle with N and how N actually lost, the player must be "eliminated." "Pokemon Special" made this more overt, with Ghetsis coming out and saying he had to kill Black to silence him, then using a team of Pokemon trained specifically to counter Black's team and leave him (and the Pokemon) defenseless so that they could be killed. With the victorious hero dead, Ghetsis could lie to the public and say that N and his dragon defeated and killed the opposing hero, making them think their power was greater, and thus increasing their fear and reverence. In the second game, his words were either "you will be left frozen here" or "I'll freeze you solid", and then he orders Kyurem to use Glaciate on the player. That WOULD incapacitate them, but if left there, the player would also experience a slow, agonizing death of freezing, hypothermia, and starvation. Ghetsis wasn't interested in quick kills - he's a torturer and a sadist, so a more torturous death is what he enjoys dealing out. So the player would be, for all intents and purposes, killed by that attack. Also, Purple Eyes was one of those genocidal villains, and the only one devoid of redeeming features. And yes we can measure him by that - that's how the trope has worked in other instances. Cutting Ghetsis on those grounds is like cutting the Joker because he didn't actually get the opportunity to cause damage on Darkseid's scale, cutting Tarkin because he didn't actually get the opportunity to cause damage on Palpatine's scale, or cutting Tao Pai Pai because he didn't actually get the opportunity to cause damage on Frieza's scale. If a villain is characterized as a Complete Monster, then he or she qualifies so long as that characterization is reflected in his or her deeds. Ghetsis fits that bill. His deeds show him to be a person who would sink to any depravity in order to obtain power and satisfy his sense of self-entitlement. This "baseline heinousness" thing that TV Tropes pushes is, quite frankly, nonsensical. In BW1, he practically had a freaking church of animal right activists at his disposal and all the elements of a legend that would get him control of the entire world, all it's Pokemon, and it's system. In BW2, where he had less time to come up with something, he turned his remaining followers into a terrorist group, obtained another legendary Pokemon, and utilized his front man's scientific know-how and technology to control said Pokemon into carrying out acts of terrorism on the entire region. He'd move on to larger scale world domination from there. Sounds heinous to me. And Eddy's brother really has no business coming up in this discussion about Ghetsis, but I'd still say he qualifies on the grounds of him having these little extra things to his character that makes him heinous by the standards of that show's setting - the fact that he's way older than the kid he beats up on, the fact that the injuries he gives Eddy are actually severe-looking, AND the fact that he deals out psychological abuse in addition to physical and emotional, which none of the other characters can be said to have done. DocColress (talk) 18:34, September 8, 2014 (UTC)DocColress I've removed Complete Monster for hopefully the last time. All that said, Ghetsis saved the lives of the Shadow Triad. They follow him not out of fear or blind faith, but gratitude, thus implying good things about what he's done. That's a Pet the Dog moment if I've seen one, and Monster's don't pet Dogs. If you want to continue arguing, any of you who sees this, see the Ghetsis section of this. '' No fear,'' [[User_talk:LostGod2000|no fun. ''' ]] 03:25, October 24, 2014 (UTC) You say "implying", and that's the issue there. Controversy over off-screen acts of evil is one thing, but off-screen acts of GOOD? That's utterly insufficient in terms of judging a CM candidate. If it's a "Pet the Dog moment if I've seen one", you haven't seen one since we didn't see the moment occur - we only hear of it from his servants who use life debt as their excuse for following him. In all the moments we actually see Ghetsis, he doesn't do a single decent thing, and that on-screen evil is what we should be going by here. We've not actually seen him Pet the Dog, nor seen the alleged moment from Ghetsis' perspective. For all we know, he arranged the Triad's endangering to begin with. There's nothing to say that's the case, but nothing to say it's not - and it's highly doubtful Ghetsis ever did anything out of selflessness. That's just not his way. DocColress (talk) 01:35, November 28, 2014 (UTC) DocColress And how so does offscreen villainy differentiate? A good portion of Ghetsis's worst acts were offscreen. By your logic, only all of his onscreen actions are going to count, and them alone do not count him for reasons I've illustrated elsewhere. Seeing my stance on on and offscreen villainy, I'm not going to use that against you, but I'd like to tell you to not come to me saying that this doesn't matter. The information the game presents us says that he's Pet the Dog. The Triad's undying loyalty to Ghetsis heavily supports this, and no in-game information serves to invalidate his actions. Solely judging these actions based on his character doesn't really mean anything seeing as the game- or Ghetsis himself, for that matter- doesn't really do much to say otherwise about it. It doesn't matter if it's out of character for Ghetsis, it's still a strike against him. All other information I've used against Ghetsis I've posted in a lengthy rant in the link above. I'm not going to toil away to post information, because it's become even more apparent none of us are going to convince one another. I'd like this war to stop now, and if any more conflicts happen, I'd simply going to call this page for lockdown because this war has stretched itself far past its due date. [[User:LostGod2000| '' No fear,]] [[User_talk:LostGod2000|no fun. '' ]] 00:21, November 30, 2014 (UTC) We see the results of Ghetsis' offscreen villainy and this offscreen "Pet the Dog" for ourselves, and what do they have in common? Ghetsis benefits. The Triad serves Ghetsis loyally out of a life debt, not anything related to what sort of person he is or how he's treated them after saving their lives. And come to think of it, what evidence is there that Ghetsis literally saved their lives from endangerment? They mention "ever since the day Ghetsis saved our lives" in BW, and how they're loyal to Ghetsis "because he saved us" in B2W2. Considering how they're characterized, this could very well be equivalent to religious fantatical talkiing. If you want to say that the Triad viewing Ghetsis postiviely and serving him loyally is a negating factor, that's fine (I wouldn't agree because I don't think the Triad themsevles are characterized very sympathetically in either game), but this supposed offscreen "Pet the Dog" is WAY too vague and unclear to be taken as such a serious diqualifier. His offscreen villainy at least set everything we do see happening on-screen in motion. This life debt thing is a rather throwaway excuse, all things considered. It wouldn't have had to had people left well enough alone rather than go "Oh, but TV Tropes says..." DocColress (talk) 06:32, December 2, 2014 (UTC) DocColress OK, I'm going to post the words of my friend Noxious Sludge in regards to Ghetsis' qualifications, and I'm going to insert my own thoughts too. "As someone who agrees that Ghetsis counts, I think Doc really made the best arguements: the supposed blatant Pet The Dog moment with the Shadow Triad is never made clear, and Ghetsis never shows any affection towards them. And despite the horrifying things Cyrus and Lysandre were willing to do, Ghetsis is even worse due to the fact that he's willing to crush people under heel and impose tyrannical rule over them as opposed to simply killing them quickly on top of his other crimes (Brainwashing and abusing his adopted son, using said son as his pawn to enslave humanity with plans to dispose of him once he isn't needed anymore, enslaving and torturing a Pokemon so he could use it as a weapon, attempting to murder/condemn a child to a terrible fate). What really seals the deal for me though is how Ghetsis really stacks up compared to his fellow villains." The reasoning for why Ghetsis' end goal is ultimately worse is put nicely - Cyrus was wanting to destroy everything only to recreate it all but devoid of spirit, while Lysandre was attempting mass homicide on the people and Pokemon of Kalos and possibly the entire world. Ghetsis was going to instill a tyrannical reign in which he and his personal lackeys would be the only ones able to use Pokemon, meaning the people without Pokemon would be rendered powerless and unable to fight back against their oppression. Ask yourself which sounds worse: getting killed only to be revived without spirit, thus not even knowing what you're missing? Getting killed off permanently but quickly, thus the pain doesn't last? Or living under a totalitarian rule in which every day you face is pure torture due to what your oppressors can do to you with their unlimited influence, privilege, and power - all led by a serial tormentor who admits to enjoying making people suffer and seeing them break under hopelessness and despair? Yeah, I'd say the last one sounds the most nightmarish. And that's just the ends - the means are depraved enough. Manipulation, lying, mental and emotional abuse, slavedriving, torture, terrorism, extortion, attempted murder, and stepping all over people and Pokemon alike for his rise to power are all things Ghetsis has done in the name of his entitlement-fueled desire to rule the world. If that doesn't show a man who is completely monstrous, I don't know what does. "Giovanni? He was your standard mob boss, and ultimately had a change of heart after beign defeated by Red. Archie and Maxie? They had Pokemon and humanity's best interests at heart respectively and didn't intend for the situation with Kyogre or Groudon respectively to get so out of hand.Cyrus? He wanted to fix what he viewed as a flawed world and had his mind warped by childhood neglect/abuse. Lysandre? He's pretty much the Ra's Al-Ghul of Pokemon, and not to mention genuinely insane to boot. Now Ghetsis? Unlike all of these other guys who either had good intentions or ultimately proved to have good qualities, he was only looking out for himself, and to this end, he sought total domination over humanity and used everyone around him as a pawn to further his ambitions, not to mention perfectly sane unlike Lysandre or Cyrus (At least until his defeat in Black 2/White 2)." This describes more why Ghetsis is the most evil main series villain rather than the most heinous, but in a franchise like Pokemon, who's more evil usually IS the measuring stick for the heinous standard. In the anime, Hunter J doesn't attempt anything as horrific as what Cyrus was planning to do, but she was a more evil, greedy, self-serving person, thus is seen as worse. In manga, Charon doesn't attempt anything as horrific as what Cyrus was planning to do, but he's a more evil, greedy, self-serving person, thus is seen as worse. In the main games, Ghetsis never really attempted anything as horrific as Cyrus or even Lysandre, but he's a more evil, greedy, self-serving person, thus is seen as worse. It's never about what these villains DO so much as what they ARE and thus what they COULD DO with more resources and a larger playing field at their disposal. Consider that by attempting to kill/torture/incapcitate a kid with a glaciate attack by Kyruem during a moment that was NOT a Pokemon battle, Ghetsis showed himself as someone who does not consider himself bound by any trainer rules. Imagine THAT sort of person in control of what Team Galactic had and attempting what Cyrus was going to do, or in control of what Team Flare had and attempting what Lysandre was going to do, or heck, in control of what Cipher had and attmepting what they did with their Shadow Pokemon conspiracy? Those villains in their respective roles were bad, but place Ghetsis in the roles and he'd be even WORSE. Because he's not a self-made psychopath with a broken moral compass like Cyrus, or a mentally ill yet well meaning misanthrope like Lysandre - he's a power-hungry sociopath who just wants to gain total control. "Funnily enough, he's even the only villainous team leader whose Pokemon flat out HATE him as his Hydreigon in the sequels can use the move Frustration (a move that gets more powerful the more a Pokemon hates it's trainer) at full power. Archie, Maxie, and Cyrus all owned Crobats, which will only evolve from a Golbat if it absolutely loves it's trainer, not to mention the fact that since Lysandre, Maxie, and Archie are all capable of Mega Evolution, meaning that they also have to be close to their Gyarados, Camerupt, and Sharpedo respectively showing that most villains in the series at least care for their Pokemon. I know these are small details, but to me, they make Ghetsis so much worse as even his Pokemon are victims to his cruelty (Which as mentioned before, Kyurem is direct proof of), further sealing the deal that Ghetsis is a loathsome, self-centered, monstrous piece of work." Pokemon abuse may be commonplace in this setting, but Ghetsis takes it to another level. All abuse of Pokemon carried out by Team Plasma - all of it permitted and influenced by him. I am also tired of talking Ghetsis - I was tired of him ever since TV Tropes disputed his inclusion. I just hoped this wiki wouldn't come to the same unpopular verdict. DocColress (talk) 01:31, December 10, 2014 (UTC) DocColress How about we separate the pages of Ghetsis' portrayal in the games & in the anime/manga into the different page.? I was thinking of the same idea for Giovanni by giving him the page Giovanni (Pokemon Origins) as a separate article as that incarnation of him is a redeemed villain. Pokemon Wiki & Bulbapedia have separated pages of several characters who have been portrayed differently such as Misty (anime), Brock (anime), May (anime), Iris (anime), Cilan (anime), N (anime) & Giovanni (anime). That in my opinion might possibly worked for our CM problem thing. I also find this interesting page that I found: Darkrai (Mystery Dungeon). (Swoobatman (talk) 06:31, October 29, 2014 (UTC)) I agree we need a game version page. I have played Black 2/White 2 and based on his actions there most notably trying to freeze the player alive, and his manipulation of his son in the original Unova Games among other character traits, I would say he qualifies in the games. Xmike920 23:03 December 6, 2014 (UTC). Can an admin please, please, PLEASE add Complete Monster to this despicable excuse of a human being!!! OhkEshivar (talk) 22:18, April 14, 2015 (UTC) I wish that could happen, but it's doubtful since this wiki seems to have fallen for TV Tropes' verdict on the character. If he's not evil enough for that wiki, he's not a Complete Monster, I guess. DocColress (talk) 02:08, April 17, 2015 (UTC) DocColress Oh, this is open again? In that case, if anyone sees this link which makes a case for Ghetsis' Complete Monster qualifications in great detail, let me know if it's swayed any opinions and changed any minds in regards to whether or not he ought to be in this category here on this wiki. DocColress (talk) 19:09, April 28, 2015 (UTC) Having played all of the Unova Games I would say that Ghetsis qualifies here as a CM. mainly in the sequels where he freezes over whole cities to get people to bow down to him and tries to freeze the player alive. But it is likely more his motive that should qualify him, trying to rule the world as the only person with pokemon and not caring whom he must destroy to get what he wants. Xmike920, 17:55, May 14, 2015 (UTC) Precisely. Really thinking about it, Ghetsis probably wouldn't qualify as a CM if we were going by just one game on it's own. It's his role, actions, and behavior in both games put together that seal the deal for his status. He commits terrible crimes that are considered truly heinous in the story, is taken seriously and reviled by other characters, has no Freudian Excuse and no good motive, and has no redeeming qualities, refusing to repent in either game. The one supposed negating factor - the Shadow Triad's view of him - is more Mad Love and firerce loyalty than truly caring about the guy, and the nature of how he "saved" them and from what is entirely vague and ultimately throwaway. DocColress (talk) 03:20, May 15, 2015 (UTC) Aside from what I listed what else did he exactly do that could also qualify him? Xmike920 (talk) 15:54, May 24, 2015 (UTC)Xmike920Xmike920 (talk) 15:54, May 24, 2015 (UTC) 11:53, May 24, 2015 (UTC) He orchestrated the big attack on the Unova League, wanted to win over the hearts, minds, and souls of the masses only so that he could subjugate them via threat of force due to him and his select followers being the only ones who could control/command/use Pokemon, tried to have the player character killed in order to silence him/her about N's defeat (this was made more explicit in the manga), the sheer level of emotional and mental abuse he put his son through just to ensure he could be a pawn who'd play the role Ghetsis wanted him to play so that HE could get what HE wanted (even using what N wanted, liberation of Pokemon, as a lie), enslaving and abusing Pokemon into doing his dirty work and hoping to do the same to people once he ruled the world, tortured Kyurem with a machine to make it draw out it's power for the freeze canon, controlled Kyruem's mind and will through his cane, and forcibly spliced it with Reshiram/Zekrom, and reveling in all forms of torture, particularly dealing out emotional turmoil and seeing his victims lose all hope. He's like the Pokemon version of Count Rugen mixed with a bit of Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sidious and Judge Frollo. He also has crimes exclusive to his manga incarnation, such as using his Eelectross to paralyze Black and then leave him for dead, threatening an innocent hostages' life in order to make Brycen surrender, having the Gym Leaders tortured and beaten down by his Pokemon before tying them to crosses to make a statement, trying to kill Black again by ordering his Hydregion to incinerate him, ordering the deaths of the trainers who oppose him by coming to Black's rescue, and sealing Black inside the Light Stone right in front of White while he made his escape after mocking them. DocColress (talk) 20:13, May 24, 2015 (UTC) Great description Doc Colress, If I could find a comparison point to other villains in the series, I would compare him to Hunter J, The Iron Masked Marauder, Grings Kodai, and most recently added Dr. Yung. Ghetsis in the Games/Manga and these aforementioned villains all share several defining character traits and crimes in common, Cruelty to humans and pokemon alike, killing trying to kill a person/pokemon, trying/planning to destroy a large populated area, zero regard for life natural or artificial.Xmike920 (talk) 16:04, June 6, 2015 (UTC) Xmike920Xmike920 (talk) 16:04, June 6, 2015 (UTC) 12:04 June 6, 2015 (UTC) So does he go on the category or not? DocColress (talk) 15:53, June 13, 2015 (UTC) No, he does not get this category. I'm really, really irritated that you can't let something like that go. You really act like a child who doesn't get his way, so no, Ghetsis won't be getting that category back. Robinsonbecky (talk) 10:02, July 11, 2015 (UTC) I still don't understand the reasoning, though. It can't just be because TV Tropes voted him down - otherwise why do we still have Hopper, Syndrome, Sykes, Eddy's Brother, and a bunch of other examples they don't have put in this category? They have to go too. DocColress (talk) 18:20, July 11, 2015 (UTC) I however agree with DocColress, and I think a lot of other users also agree that Ghetsis should be labelled a CM. The nazi admins on this wiki however always disagree with you when you label someone a CM despite fitting the criteria (Ghetsis, Helen Cutter, Jacqueline Natla) or insist that a character is a CM despite their being a larger picture of tragedy and or clinincal insanity involved (Caligula, I Claudius). OhkEshivar (talk) 21:51, July 11, 2015 (UTC) Eh, I wouldn't go for invoking Godwin's Law - "draconian" is a better description for the TV Tropes minded admins. DocColress (talk) 21:58, July 11, 2015 (UTC) I don't really have strong feelings one way or the other regarding Ghetsis, but one thing I'm curious about is was his manga incarnation ever discussed? Apparently he's worse in the manga. Honorshipper (talk) 15:02, September 5, 2015 (UTC) Has he ever been discussed where? DocColress (talk) 20:54, October 9, 2015 (UTC) I was talking about the manga version. Honorshipper (talk) 15:05, September 10, 2015 (UTC) I know that, but I mean WHERE hasn't manga!Ghetsis been discussed? TV Tropes? 'Cause he was discussed quite heavily here on Villains' WIki - just look above. DocColress (talk) 02:44, October 11, 2015 (UTC) Please add images of Zekrom and Reshiram in the gallery of his Pokémon Mario and Rio Fan (talk)Can someone please add to the gallery of his Pokémon that he uses Zekrom in Ultra Sun and Reshiram~~ I would add it myself but I can't because the article is protected and all the previous villains in those games use a legendary pokemon and I have added them to their articles but I can't with Ghetsis due to the reason already mentioned, If someone who can access this article can please do that I would very much appreciate it.